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Forum:Retcons
Retcons are really a category of their own when it comes to inconsistencies. Some retcons don't pose any problems. Minute changes in appearance of models, added detail to sets and such. There are cases where major retcons have been embraced back into continuity the "Klingon forehead problem", and "Enterprise XCV 330", and others when the earlier version simply disapears like the "TNG-trill" and the "Bonaventure C1-21" and it doesn't really conflict with the latter version even if it coexists. As of now retcons have been treated as inconsistancies in valid sources. If both versions are as prominent the latter has prevailed as "the true one", early version is only noted in the background. If one is less prominent it has been added as a background note only. The "USS Melbourne resolution" has set a precedent where both versions are respected equally. As anyone familiar with that case knows, she was represented by two different ship classes in the show. Similar problem has surfaced in the TOS-R. Some ships are replaced. Simply ignoring the earlier version as a background note and accepting the new one without a grain of salt is to do the 40 years of history when that early version was considered the real version an injustice. So we accept both as the real one and follow the USS Melbourne example. Problem 1: exemplified by "Woden", "Starbase 6" and the "USS Melbourne". They have two different types or classes . People usually browse MA from categories and links. If we respect both versions do we classify these ships as undetermined, or add them to both classes simultaneously so they are easier to find. Do we essentially state they were both types simultaneously in the categories? Problem 2: What about the articles themselves. Should it be formated in the way that the main body treats the object as if we didn't know what it looked like. And only the background section shows the contradicting images and possibly what it would mean to the in-universe if it was one or the other. In essense if the categories claim "go see this DY-100 class ship" they find an article that doesn't say we even know what the class is, in the main text. Problem 3: If so, can the two versions establish something concrete. For example "DY-100 was still actively used in the 23rd century as an ore freighter" or "Due to retcon it is impossible to determine if DY-100 was still actively used in the 23rd century as an ore freighter" in the DY-100 page. or "K7-type deep space stations were also used as starbases" or "Due to retcon..." etc. Do we claim out loud that both version are true and establish something, and only note in the background the retcon side of matters. Do we ignore what the appearances establish all together, and only note the retcon side of matters in the background and what they might establish there as well. A consensus must be reached as to what the policy is to deal with the current articles and for the future when other cases surface. --Pseudohuman 07:34, 4 May 2008 (UTC) :If you look at your own Talk: page, you'll see that there apparently IS a consensus. If you don't like what the consensus is, don't pretend it doesn't exist. I'm 'a move this there. TribbleFurSuit 17:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC) Due to the suggestion of User:Cleanse I have opened this matter to an open discussion in the forum. So it shouldn't be moved back to my talk page. I would welcome any oppinions regarding this issue. There is a current policy in place to treat retcons as "just another inconsistency", but I would be interested to hear if everyone is fine with it and the way it denies us objectivity. I suspect the upcoming movie will retcon a lot of things established in the two original pilot episodes. As these issues always stir up discussion (in essense pointing out everyone is not fine with the "consensus") I am hoping to establish a policy that specifically addresses this issue once-and-for-all so those separate case-by-case discussions and compromises become unnecessary. --Pseudohuman 17:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC) ::Then, OK, here's an opinion: You need to acknowledge that you don't like the consensus, not pretend that we don't already have one that actually does make sense when you follow it. So far. As another user recently conceded, let's deal with the movie in a year. Whatever problems it will reveal can not be dealt with today. TribbleFurSuit 18:11, 4 May 2008 (UTC) :::This is more of the same attitude you showed during the Melbourne brouhaha: "Precedence isn't good enough, so, let's stir the cess and see if a new Policy falls out". There's tons of precedence around handling TOS-R matters. If there's an existing example that you think needs a different treatment, show it to us. Every "problem" you bring up has an answer that is beyond obvious once you accept the consensus that has been described to you. Before I describe these as they logically follow from the consensus, let me show you where your whole initial reasoning goes all wrong: :::You say above "Some retcons don't pose any problems" and then "As of now retcons have been treated as inconsistancies in valid sources". The first statement is true, and that's basically what defines a Retcon. the second satatment is totally false: You are the only person who wants to treat "inconsistancies in valid sources" as Retcons. Even so, this is the way it should properly follow, NOT "Retcon treated as inconsistency", so you not only are alone in this, but you also have it backward. What you want to do is turn MA into a "Fan-Retcon" site, whereas we rightly honor deliberate Production Retcon. :::On to your "Problems", which go away when you recognize the consensus that OuroborosCobra informed you of. ::: Problem 1 Not undetermined. Both categories, as long as there's not some balance-tipping canon evidence that establishes one category over the other. Hypothetical example: TOS-R updates a ship to a new class onscreen, but TNG dialogue specifically identifies that 100-year-old ship as belonging to the originally-portrayed class. Otherwise, without this balance-tipping evidence, then Yes, both categories include said item. ::: Problem 2 No, of course we don't pretend it's invisible and never seen. Yes, include in Background. Described Category problem doesn't exist. ::: Problem 3 Both versions treated as True. In absence of evidence that DY-100 was NOT a 23rd century ore freighter, there's no contradiction in your example. The expression "Retcon" never, ever belongs in an article's main text, and only rarely in Background text when the issue could not otherwise be effectively described in terms of production activity. :::Now you have answers to the questions you raised. Is that enough for your satisfaction? Can you go be a productive contributor, now that it's cleared up and spelled out? There aren't any problems, and there's nothing wrong with MA's current state. When you identify a truly troublesome issue in some specific article, start by talking about it there. Don't invent Policy difficulties until it's wildly obvious to the community beyond your own workspace that one exists. TribbleFurSuit 18:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)